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Cherry 16 Specifications
LOA 4.75m, Beam 2.15m, Trailer Weight 220Kg
Sail Area
Main 7.6 sq meter, Jib 3.8 sq meter, Spinnaker 7.8 sq meter
The Cherry is a light weight trailer yacht designed to be built with a minimum of experience. The bottom and side panels are scarfed together to form full length panels. These are then laced together with 80lbs monofilament line or copper wire and all the joins glass taped with two layers of fibreglass tape and epoxy resin bonded. The hull itself takes 3 to 4 days to build and the complete craft approximately 3 weeks.
The layout consists of a vee bunk forward plus two quarter berths under the cockpit seats. The bunks form an intergral part of the structure of the craft. The Cherry has a fairly fine entry and flattens out to a wide planing section aft, and the large cockpit, nearly 2.4 m long allows the weight of the crew to be kept amidships when sailing. Because of the light weight, the rig has been kept relatively small but the sail area to weight is comparable with most other craft of this type. The pivoting centreboard is housed under the cockpit floor and is controlled by a wire strop coming up over the pully and is raised and lowered with a simple block and tackle. Because of the light weight the Cherry is easily trailered and requires only an extended box trailer or a simple trailer with two cradles.
All plywood panels are 6mm thick, except the centreboard case and cockpit floor which is 9mm. The Cherry will take a 6 HP outboard motor mounted on the transom bracket.
Sail Area
Main 7.6 sq meter, Jib 3.8 sq meter, Spinnaker 7.8 sq meter
The Cherry is a light weight trailer yacht designed to be built with a minimum of experience. The bottom and side panels are scarfed together to form full length panels. These are then laced together with 80lbs monofilament line or copper wire and all the joins glass taped with two layers of fibreglass tape and epoxy resin bonded. The hull itself takes 3 to 4 days to build and the complete craft approximately 3 weeks.
The layout consists of a vee bunk forward plus two quarter berths under the cockpit seats. The bunks form an intergral part of the structure of the craft. The Cherry has a fairly fine entry and flattens out to a wide planing section aft, and the large cockpit, nearly 2.4 m long allows the weight of the crew to be kept amidships when sailing. Because of the light weight, the rig has been kept relatively small but the sail area to weight is comparable with most other craft of this type. The pivoting centreboard is housed under the cockpit floor and is controlled by a wire strop coming up over the pully and is raised and lowered with a simple block and tackle. Because of the light weight the Cherry is easily trailered and requires only an extended box trailer or a simple trailer with two cradles.
All plywood panels are 6mm thick, except the centreboard case and cockpit floor which is 9mm. The Cherry will take a 6 HP outboard motor mounted on the transom bracket.
CHERRY ARTICLES
Favourite links
- http://boats-storerdesign.blogspot.com
- http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/
- http://stores.ebay.com.au/Spinny-Things-Trailer-Parts/TECHNICAL-GUIDE.html
- http://www.bateau.com/
- http://www.berkeley-engineering.com/index.html
- http://www.biasboating.com.au/
- http://www.boatdesign.net/plans/index.htm
- http://www.boatplans.dk/
- http://www.clcboats.com/index.php
- http://www.common-sense-boats.com/
- http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/
- http://www.glen-l.com/
- http://www.learning2sail.co.uk/
- http://www.nisboats.com/
- http://www.pelinplans.co.nz/catalogue.htm
- http://www.seabreeze.com.au/Graphs/vic.asp
- http://www.trailawayboatkits.com.au/
- http://www.trailersailerplace.com.au
- http://www.users.on.net/~dbannon/cherry/
- http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_home.asp
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170 comments:
the pelin 474 is mine!
Which one is that? As i'm new to Cherrys please let me know all about it.
sorry, its the one with sail number 478. this should be like the production number of a boat. don't know how it works with these craft, since the plans are sold in australia as well and the numbers there seem to be in a different order. I'm new to cherrys also! so this could be like the blind leading the blind by the sounds of things! your is further on than mine if you've painted it. I bought with a small amount or rot in hull to find whoever had built it hadn't treated the inside of the centreboard casing. hole now goes from internal bouyancy tank to internal bouyancy tank is 2300cm long and means need new cb casing, pushpit floor as well as alot of hull!
advantages I bought for was it will go in a garage, be towed by a small car,get the family in and should sail something like a dinghy.
Seperate note are you from NZ? n do you get my personal email?
i am making comments but don't know where they appear so please bear with me!
Hi
I had one of the early Cherry's which gave me great fun sailing for many years. Unfortunately the tenants where the boat was stored destroyed it so they could sell the mast/boom & fittings to a scrap metal merchant.
Now have a much smaller Cal 14, nowhere near as fast or stable nor as much room.
I hope your get a lot of enjoyment out of your boat
regards
Alex
Hi all,
I've been lucky enough to be given a Cherry 16
(CH 380) by a good mate of mine.... needs a little work with some rot on the gunnels and deck area etc. Shouldn't be too hard to fix I think. Are there any other Cherry owners around in the western sub.
How can I post some pics as the project continues?
Cheers Will
melbourne
Will, email any pictures to jaxsen_lee@hotmail.com with any comments and i'll happily post them.
hi Jaxsen, jjust thought I'd write and tell you I've just purchased Red Blooded! hope this little Cherry is as fast as they say! will keep you posted on how things go.
I tried to fix the other cherry i have (sail no. 478), but when built the interior of the centre board casing wasn't treated with anything so has all delaminated, as has the bottom of the hull, hopefully the parts will be interchangable.
one favour I would like to ask: have you any close up photo's of the hatch cover into the cabin. None of my cherry's have covers and I would like to fit one. thank you
Stephen
The Cherry sail number should be the same as the number on the Plan. The Australian Cherry 16 rules were circulated by the Class Association on 1 July 2001 to bring them into line with the 2001-04 ISAF ERS.These specs are for the CBH of .590. The NZ set up is slightly different and has a lower CBH of aprox .560 when compared with the Farr 6.
Thr original group of Cherry 16 owners formed a class association and wrote a set of class rules for a better sail design more suitable for Australian racing conditions. The specifications were lodged with the State Yachting Authority and sail designation CH was given. The CBH of .590 was given on those specs as it was some 5% faster than the NZ cruising plan designed by Pelin. Several builders also made the bow finer and made the rocker flatter. The idea was to compete with the Hartley 16 but the hull design was not so efficient/fast due to it being shaped for easy construction. Originally there were some 20 racing owners in Victoria and the ACT but the association stopped functioning around 2004.
Cherry 16 Capsize
Hi.
I have a Cherry 16 and recently capsized it in the Marlborough Sounds (New Zealand). My girlfriend and I departed with a bout a 10 knot breeze on the beam, but this gradually built as we got further down the Sound and before long there were whitecaps and plenty of concentration was called for. We decided to tack and about while doing so got hit by one of the whomping gusts that the Sounds are known for. Next thing we were in the water, with the boat upside down.
To cut a long story short, we were unable to right the boat by ourselves. I have righted sailing dinghies such as a laser many times before but there was no way the Cherry was going to come back up. The cabin hatch was open and the boat filled with water. Eventually a launch came along and after much trying we got her upright with a rope pulled by the launch perpendicular to the hull, but the cabin and cockpit were awash and she just rolled back over. It was sobering and scary.
I think the wide flat bottom was part of the problem in that once the boat has heeled to leeward by 45 degrees or so the bottom has so much windage the wind just keeps pushing the boat over.
My aim in submitting this post is to firstly alert other owners to the problem, and secondly to see if others have also had capsizes and whether they could right the boat.
(BTW in the end we just towed the boat to a beach upside down, and picked it up with a barge the next day. The mast base came out of the foot and punched a hole thru the side of the boat. It was an expensive day)
Capsize? Yikes! Makes me want to seal up the mast and put a hobie float on. I probably should also install a keel locking pin also. Did you go turtle? Do you cleat your main?
I have just refitted 'Stoned' for racing. She has the sail number CH 911 and is the Victorian racing version with the fully battened mainsail.I am hoping she performs as the CBH is .590 while with the standard Pellin cruising rig the NZ CBH converted to the Australian would be .560.
Does anyone have a copy of the Class Rules from 2001 as the Cherry Association has disbanded?
Paul
My Name is Warren Hellwig and with my Son Peter we built a Cherry 16 in Nowra NSW in 1983. We raced it over many years and won the Australian Title in 1991 the boat was named Telstar 4. We won the NSW ACT State Title in c 1987 and were never beaten when the titles were sailed. On a recent visit to Canberra I saw the boat was still sailing which proved the longevity of properly building it.
I lent my plans to a chap in 1998 and when he sent them back the full size plans for the hull were missing. I never recovered them and now need to obtain the plan to enable a new craft to be built. I am becoming involved here in Coffs Harbour (NSW) with a group of disadvantaged men who are interested in building a Cherry, and would be most grateful of any help I can get to see this project get underway.
Also Peter and I purchased ( for $50.00) in the late 90s, an unfinished hull. We gutted it, fitted a fully flexible rig. And raced it in Canberra where we beat Hartly 16s. It was only expected to last a season, and we sold it before it fell to pieces. I do not know the history of that craft after we sold it in Canberra before I retired here to Coffs Harbour. After swamping it in a 45 Knot gust ( with Kite up) we discovered that the buoyancy aft was inadequate. We then got two polystyrene fruit boxes and sealed them up , and placed them in the stern section of the ¼ berths. We capsized it once after that and the boat floated almost level. It is a safety measure that the present owners could incorporate with almost no cost.
We had a successful Cherry 16 Association going for many years but interest waned and to my knowledge there has been no championships or gatherings since then. I would be glad to hear of any other Cherry 16 happenings and would be glad to be kept informed. I have many happy memories of the past and love telling some ‘tales’. Please keep in touch.
warrenhellwig@dodo.com.au
Hi Warren,
Great to hear you are still sailing. I have not seen Peter since he crewed on my wife's Elliot 6.5 Hot Gossip. Surprise, I now own your old boat!
I bought her as it fitted into a 20' container for transport to PNG where it was cruised for a year. The boat is now back in Canberra at the YMCA SC under its new name Stoned. She is still as fast as ever and carries your original RANSA logo.
I have refitted her for serious racing while on my leave from Afghanistan. This includes a Tasar mainsail donated by ADFA. I upgraded the rig using the specifications the Cherry 16 class association published in 2001 with its higher hound height and larger spinnaker.Unfortunately the Association folded in around 2004 only leaving the CH mainsail insignia as a memory.
I have not heard of Tim Holt for many years since he also sailed a Cherry 16 in Canberra.
Paul
The Hartley and Cherry 16s each have merit. The Hartley is built by the original plywood method of screwing/gluing the sheets to stringers and frames. This is why the hull weighs 360kg. The Cherry came later and is built by stitching and gluing, and therefore is lighter at 220kg.
The Hartley is a more efficient hull shape with its double chines, in comparison the Cherry is single chine and rather too flat and wide afterwards. The Hartley has slightly more cabin space but the Cherry has two small quarter berths suitable for children.
As far as rig is concerned, The Hartley has a taller mast and more main and jib area. However the Cherry has a spinnaker. There was one on the original Hartley plan but this is rarely used as the Hartley 16 association banned its use in racing. The Pelin plans for the Cherry were for a family cruising boat to be safe in NZ strong winds. In Australia the sails used for racing including a fully battened mainsail and taller spinnaker are larger as shown in the specifications on the Yachting Victoria website. The Cherry Class rules passedin 2001 are still relevant.
The Hartley 16 is the most popular trailable yacht in the world and has a very strong following including a very active class association. Their newsletter is great. You can now get them in fibreglass. There are some 15,000 with 2,000 in Australia with a good secondhand market. The reason the Hartley Mk2 never succeeded was it was not allowed to compete in Hartley 16 races. The Cherry came later and never took off due to the large number of fibreglass designs then available. Just under 500 were built worldwide, with some 100 in Australia. There was a class association in Victoria which died in ten years ago.
Which is faster? In theory the Hartley is fastest as shown by its CBH rating of .635 compared with the .590 of the Cherry. However much of this 7.5% difference in rating is accounted for the fact by the Hartley 16 is very actively raced with more competent skippers. The Hartley is quicker to windward but the Cherry comes into its own off the wind with its lighter weight and spinnaker. Most Cherrys are just not set up for racing.
Which is safer? Having sailed both I would suggest there is minimum difference. They are easily handled up to 30 knots if sailed conservatively. All trailable yachts will capsize in extreme conditions but they should self right. The horror story of the 180 degree capsize was poor seamanship in not having the centreboard locked down. This was a fundamental error and is essential on all designs. Both a Hartley and Cherry will come upright after the rare event of a 90 degree capsize. The Cherry should contain less water due to the shape of its cabin opening. I deliberately capsized one as a test and it came up completely dry.
If I was racing I would choose a Hartley due to its class association. If just cruising then I would go Cherry because they can sleep two children and are cheaper to buy secondhand. One advantage of the Cherry is there are no limits on the material that can be used for its sails so Kevlar or Mylar film can be used. Being lighter the Cherry is easier to tow/launch but with a towing weight of under 700kg a Hartley can easily be towed by a 2 litre car. I have restored two Cherrys and set up one for serious racing, however I often race a Hartley because that is the common boat in the local club. For the next size up I would go Hartley 18 rather than Careel 18 but you are talking 1000kg tow weight.
Many thanks Peter for the Cherry 16 Class Rules from the old Cherry 16 Association, they are similar in outline to the specifications that have been on the Yachting Victoria website for the past 15 years.
I calculate the sail area of the racing version registered in Victoria are Main 8.5sqm, Jib 1 5.2sqm, Jib 2 3.8sqm, Jib 3 3.1 sqm, while the Spinnaker is 14 sqm depending how you calculate the area. While the records are no longer in existence, the best estimate is 25 raced at the height of their popularity in the early 1990s.
While Trailaway sold some 100 kits and plans only about 60 Cherry 16s were actually built in Australia. I wonder how many still exist as much plywood was short lived. At one time a Cherry was moored unused on the river at Ryde for several years slowly rotting.
The story behind the change in rig was the earliest Cherrys were built as cruising boats, most without a spinnaker. When a spinnaker was used it was found the foot width of 4.7m was too wide so the sailmaker Doyle suggested making it narrower at 3.8m but taller with the same sail area.
To make the rig more stable the hound height was increased with a taller jib. To balance the boat the main luff and roach size was increased. Thus some boats added a spreader. Pelin made no objection to the change as the Hartley 16 was becoming more popular and few of their plans were being sold.
The ultimate change for racing was 'Shivers' who went full mast head jib and increased the main foot to balance the rig.
The Australian version of the Cherry 16 was devised around 1985 when some Victorian owners thought the rig was too small for racing. They moved the hounds up by a metre, made the jib and spinnaker taller, then added a large roach. When the Yachting Association of Victoria developed thew Class based handicap system in the late 1980s these dimensions were registered as the standard for Cherry 16. They are still in force as shown on the 2010 website of Yachting Victoria. The Pelin Plans sold by Trailable Yachts are for the original New Zealand cruising version which is not registered for racing in Australia. If you want to race go for the rig shown on the Yachting NSW and Yachting Victoria websites under Trailable Yachts CBH details.
The kit put out by Trailaway Yachts in Queensland is for the original New Zealand cruising version. They have been providing these cruising boats since 1977. If you want to race one in Australia the handicap rating used in 1981 was .560.
The Australian racing version with the larger sails was originally developed in Victoria in the middle 1980s. When the Victorian Yachting Association registerd them for racing in 1987 a CBH of .590 was given, which is the current rating by Yachting Australia.
A few boats, such as Red Bloodied, have even larger rigs which can be sailed by experienced crew up to 30 knots. What ever your fancy there is a Cherry 16 for you!
If anyone wants to race seriously, I have a copy of the latest 2001 class rules on which the YA gave the racing handicap of .590, otherwise for the outline specifications go to the Yachting Victoria website for Trailable Yacht CBH specifications.
THE CHERRY 16 ASSOCIATION
CLASS RULES
FOR BOATS COMPETING UNDER THE AYF RACING RULES OF SAILING
l. GENERAL
1.1 The object of the Class Rules is to promote the establishment of a class of boat, which while primarily designed for cruising, can compete in open entry race events. As the design is specifically for amateur construction, the Rules shall be interpreted in this spirit while satisfying the Fundamental Rules of Racing.
1.2. The Rules are further intended to ensure that the boat fully satisfies the requirements of the AYF Special Regulations Part 1. Thus, a boat subject to these Class Rules must strictly comply with the AFF regulation 3.01.4, “A boat shall be soundly constructed, well maintained and suitable for the event for which she is entered. It must be properly rigged, and must meet the standards set forth herein.’
1.3 In accordance with the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing 2001-2004 [ERS] rule A1.2, the ERS rules are applicable to the Cherry 16 Class Rules except where specifically amended.
1.4 In accordance with ERS rule C3.3, the Cherry 16 Class Rules [CCR] are Open Class Rules where anything not specifically prohibited is permitted.
1.5 In the CCR, the word “shall” is mandatory and the word “may” is permissive.
2. HULL
2.1 The hull length, excluding fittings, shall be maximum 4.875m, minimum 4.825m.
2.2 The maximum waterline length, excluding fittings, shall be 4.130m.
2.3 The beam, excluding fittings, shall be maximum 2.200m, minimum 2.150m
2.5 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point shall be minimum 1.850m and maximum 2.000m.
2.6 The minimum hull weight shall be 220kg. measured with the boat in racing trim. It will not include food, clothing, stores, tool kits, etc. but shall include sails, anchors, chains, and safety equipment required by the Class Rules, Spinnaker poles shall be in the normal stowage position.
2.7 Construction shall be as specified in the Pelin Cherry 16 Plans of 1978 and subsequent modifications, while hull dimensions shall not exceed by ± 10mm the plan offsets in vertical and waterline planes.
3. CENTREBOARD
3.1 The centerboard shall be constructed from steel plate.
3.2 The centerboard shall be cut in profile within ± 25mm of the outline shown in the 1978 plan.
3.2 The centerboard shall be locked down while racing.
4. RUDDER
4.1 The rudder may by be constructed of any material.
4.2 The rudder may be pivoted or retractable.
5. MAST
5.1 The mast shall be constructed of any material and may be tapered.
5.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.100m, including track.
5.3 The mast may be fitted with spreaders or diamonds of any length.
5.4 The mast datum point shall be the heel. All mast measurements are from this point.
5.5 The mast length from heel point to the upper limit mark shall not exceed 5.500m..
5.6 The jib hoist height shall not exceed 4.930m, as similarly measured to ERS rule F 7.10.
5.7 The spinnaker hoist height shall not exceed 5.250m.
5.8 The spinnaker pole fitting height shall not be less than be 0.750m.
6. BOOM
6.1 The boom may be constructed of any material.
6.2 The maximum cross section of the boom shall not exceed 0.080m, and may be tapered.
7. SPINNAKER POLE
7.1 The spinnaker pole may be constructed of any material.
7.2 The maximum length of the spinnaker pole, excluding fittings, shall be 2236mm.
7.3 The maximum diameter of the spinnaker pole shall be 0.050m, and may be tapered.
THE CHERRY 16 ASSOCIATION
CLASS RULES
8. SPAR LIMIT MARKS
8.1 The limit marks shall be 10mm wide in a contrasting colour to the mast and boom.
8.2 The relevant edge of the three required limit marks shall be as follows:
.
No 1. The Mainsail Lower Limit Mark- the upper edge of the mark shall be a minimum 325mm above the mast datum point.
No 2. The Mainsail Upper Limit Mark- the lower edge of the mark shall be a maximum 5.500mm above the mast datum point.
No 3. The Jib hoist Height- the lower edge of the mark shall be 4.930m from the mast datum.
No.4 The Boom Outer Limit Mark, which shall be 2.400m from the aft side of the mast excluding the track.
9. MAINSAIL, JIB AND SPINNAKER
9.1 The Mainsail may be constructed of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional When the sail is laid flat, it shall measured in a straight line from bearing surface cringle to cringle. In measuring the sail, ERS rule G4 does not apply. The luff shall not exceed 4950mm and the foot 2350mm measured in a straight line cringle to cringle with the sail unstretched. The roach shall not exceed 700mm from the line between clew and head cringles. The sail shall be set within the limit marks on the mast and boom specified at CCR rule 8.2.
9.2 The Jib may be constricted of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The longest perpendicular shall not exceed 2100mm to the clew cringle. The jib shall not be set higher than the jib hoist height specified at CCR rules 5 and 8.
9.3 The Spinnaker shall be symmetric in form and construction, and may be constructed of any material. When the sail is laid flat and unstretched, the maximum half leech width shall be 3750mm when measured In accordance with ERS rule G7.5, the maximum leech size shall be 4800mm measured in a straight line cringle to cringle, and the maximum foot median shall be 5300mm measured in accordance with ERS rule G. 7.10.
9.5 Sails while in a race are restricted in number as follows: 1 x Mainsail, 2 x Jib, 2 x Spinnaker.
9.6 For competing in Cherry 16 Association events, if not carrying a Club registered sail number for identification, the main sail shall carry the prefix CH, as authorized by Marine Safety Victoria, with the number attached in accordance with the Prescriptions and Special Regulations of the AYF.
10. DECK HARDWARE AND EQUIPMENT
10.1 The layout and function of Deck Hardware and Equipment shall be optional.
11. STANDING RIGGING
11.1 The Side Stays [shrouds] shall be made of minimum 3/32” diameter 1x19 stain1ess steel wire, or equivalent breaking strain of 525kg.
11.2 A Forestay may be fitted for safety reasons, but will not be taken into account in the measurement of foretriangle height or foretriangle base unless the jib is fastened to the stay, in which use it shall be made of minimum 5/64” diameter 1x19 stainless steel wire, or equivalent breaking strain of 375kg. This Class Rule amends the definitions of the Equipment Rules of Sailing 2001-2004 at F 3.1 and F 3.2.
12. RUNNING RIGGING
12.1 The length, diameter and purpose of Running Rigging is optional.
12.2 The number and type of blocks are optional.
13. CREW
13.1 The minimum number of crew when racing shall be two persons unless otherwise specified in the Event Sailing Instructions.
14. AUXILLIARY POWER
14.1 Either a motor rating a minimum of 2hp, or two oars or paddles each having a blade area of at least 400cm2, shall be carried.
THE CHERRY 16 ASSOCIATION
CLASS RULES
15. SAFETY EQUIPMENT
15.1 All boats shall carry safety equipment in accordance with the appropriate Australian Yachting Federation Safety Standards.
15.2 Foot straps may be fitted for the safety of crew.
16. ANCHORS AND WARPS
16.1 All boats shall carry ready to use one anchor and one warp, in a readily accessible stowage.
16.2 The anchor shall be a minimum weight of 3kg sand anchor, or one of equivalent holding power.
16.3 The warp shall include a minimum of 2 meters of 6mm diameter galvanised short linked chain. The total length of the warp shall be a minimum 50m.
RULES UPDATED 1 July 2001 to be in accordance with ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing 2001-04
Cherry 16 Association of Australia, Melbourne, Victoria.
Yachting Association of Victoria
Specifications for the Cherry 16 trailable yacht 2001
mm
I 4930 hound height from mast datum
J 1850 jib tack point to front of mast
P 4950 straight line distance between head and tack cringles
E 2350 straight line distance between clew and tack cringles
LPG 2100 jib longest perpendicular to clew cringle
SL 4730 spinnaker straight line distance head to clew cringle
SMW 3870 spinnaker maximum half leech width
SPL 2236 spinnaker pole length without fittings
MOL 5500 mast overall length to upper limit mark.
Mass 220kg measured with the boat in racing trim for a Category 7 event. It will
not include food, clothing, stores, tool kits, etc. but shall include sails,
anchors, chains, and safety equipment required by the Class Rules.
"3.2 The centerboard shall be locked down while racing." How?!?!
Locking the centre board down.
You know how the Cherry has a swinging centre board with a wire attached to the trailing edge of the board which you pull thru a pully system in the cockpit to bring the centre board back up into the case. I used this same system in reverse having a thin wire attached to the leading head pulling the centre board forward so that it can fall back in to the centre case in the event of a capsize
One of the best ways is to have the reverse wire go out on the port side with a strong shock cord to a cleat. This way the board is locked down but if you hit anything the shock cord provides give. To bring the board up you release the tail.
I built Cherry 302 in 1980 and have used it ever since as a cruising boat, first with young sons then solo. A pivoting rudder is essential to protect the transom. The two quarterberths are now lockers, an anchor hatch up front, push and pulpits, traveller and a metre wide strip of fibreglass underneath. All the bunks have foam under them.
I only use the spinnaker in very light winds.
I've been most places in south Qld in it. I usually go on a 2 or 3 week trip in it each year from Tin Can Bay north to wherever my wife brings the trailer, 1770 or Bundaberg.
A delightful boat, easily handled, good on bars, hopeless into the wind in any chop.
Mine has a little lee helm which I have never got rid of. If I built one again I would consider shifting the centreboard forward.
Cheers David
The Rule measurements for the mainsail hoist I gave you were corrected to 5100mm rather than the 4930mm which was jib hoist height. Even then there was no way you could stretch it down to the lower black band!
To Bannerman, you have a great cruising area in which to sail.
You really need some 3-4 degrees of weather helm. I suggest you try one or more of the following;-
1. rake the mast further aft;
2. move the jib tack aft;
3. move the mast step forward.
Also it may be you have the trim balance wrong with the main sheet eased out too much or not enough vang to prevent twist.
In chop steer into the crest, if you are have too great an angle the chop will push you sideways. Your track should be a series of curves not a straight line.
Bannerman sorry I got that one wrong move, the mast step should be moved aft. The idea is to move the sail plan aft rather than move the centreboard forward.
Kiwi Ken is right about the luff measurement for the racing version. The rules sent to the Victorian Yachting Federation CBH committee had the middle sentences from rule 9.1 cut out just leaving the black band measurements.These came about by hoisting a second hand fully battened NS 14 main up the mast and marking where the bottom came! This was 325mm from the bottom hence the rule
I agree with Cherry Ripe about the main luff length.
However the original owners group in Melbourne in 1984 started using second hand Tasar sails of 8.4sqm. You could get a ten year old main in good condition for under $150 and use the jib as a storm jib if you added a strop to make up for the short luff.This meant setting up a Cherry 16 was cheap compared with the $575 for a new set from Elvstrom Sails. Hence quicker and cheaper!
re lee helm. Raking the mast puts the boom into dangerous head height. I did move the jib back from the nose which stressed the plywood too much and it is difficult to move the mast back into the hatch space. I have heard of other Cherry owners with this problem which may be caused by the way we set up the hull shape. A bigger main or avoiding windward sailing as all good cruisers do seems the way to go.
re lee helm, I agree the Pelin plan had a major flaw in that the sail plan was not balanced giving lee helm. This is why several builders moved the mast step right back to the cabin entry hatch. The modification also meant the chain plates had to be moved aft to compensate. As you say it makes cabin access a little more difficult but on balance it is a worthwhile move for a day boat.
The other option is to use a larger main. A cheap way which was adopted in the 1980s for the racing version was to use a Tasar main. This balanced the boat but had the disadvantage that the luff was 200mm longer at 2.150m which meant lowering the gooseneck by that amount reducing head room while tacking and making a window in the main essential.
The racing version developed by the Victorians is fully balanced with the larger jib and Tasar sized main by moving the mast step maximum aft and having a pronounced mast rake, but then the end of the boom is only 400mmm. above the transom making life difficult for cruising with the family without wearing crash helmets.
On your earlier comment about problems moving the jib tack position aft, some years ago I did this for a friend, who wanted both an independent forestay and jib furler, by placing a stainless steel angle bracket under the deck to carry the load which was bolted to the forestay chainplate.
Hi all, we have just bought a Cherry, NZ reg T827.
it needs a little cosmetic work, and I'll be giving it a slight makeover in terms of layout, but she seems structurally perfect and I cant wait to get her out!
Someone with a little spare time needs to try to organise a new association, I'd sign up straight away.
We intend to use her mostly for day sailing, but with a big fleet of Hartley 16's near here (Manukau) I can see racing becoming a large part!
Welcome to the Cherry 16 fleet. Manukau is a great place to sail, I raced and coached there when visting Auckland. You may have problems racing against the Hartley 16 as they are a hot fleet. The actual NZTYA ratings are .658 for the Cherry and .720 for the Hartley meaning they are about 10% quicker on average plus they have a couple of quick skippers.
Just remeber the saying, There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing, as simoply messing around about in a Cherry 16.
Hi everyone,
I have a beautiful Pelin Cherry called "Blossom" (she's the one in the photos sitting on her trailer with the burgundy hull) I've had a lot of fun sailing around Auckland harbour as well as the Bay of Islands but now i'm moving overseas and it's time to sell. I'll be popping her up on trademe in the coming weeks so if you or anyone you know is interested then take a look at the auction (i realise a lot of the watchers of this blog are in aussie but there's got to be a few kiwis out there!) Anyway, about blossom, she has a 3.5hp motor with very few hours on the clock, anchor + chain + rope, main sail, jib, storm jib and kite, deck and cabin was stripped down and re-painted inside and out and is looking good, she's on a regiserted and warrented trailor. I'll be very sad to let her go but someone should have a lot of fun with her!
Gday All. I have just started learning with CH315 an Bhean uasail (Lady) out of St Leonards Port Phillip. I chose the Cherry for versatility as a family boat that I can also use to follow the Hartleys around on a Sunday. I can squeeze six men in the cockpit (siblings). The broad seats are good for diving. I can sail it alone with minimal skills on an easy day. Due to the problems going upwind I think new sails might help and intend to get Doyle sails to make some. Any advice would be helpful. I would also enjoy more learning in a group on this class. cheers bill
The History of the Cherry 16 in Australia
The Cherry 16 was an innovative approach in the 1970s to use the stitch and glue construction technique to build a small lightweight trailable yacht. While it never achieved the success of the traditional constructed Hartley 16 some five hundred were amateur made with over fifty plus in Australia.
Unfortunately the rig and sail design were unsatisfactory, and the Cherry 16 as designed suffered from lee helm, poor windward performance and mediocre speed in light winds.
Attempts were to correct these deficiencies, in particular the lee helm. Some boats had their mast step position moved aft, but this meant also moving the chain plate aft. A more popular approach was to add a larger mainsail, and a cheap method was using a second hand Tasar sail. The second problem was windward performance, which was improved by moving the jib sheet track to the cabin top and adopting end boom sheeting. The original spinnaker design was an archaic triangle shape; the low cost solution was to buy a second hand Sharpie sail with the hoist further up the mast. As timber for masts became impossible to obtain, use was made of cheap untapered alloy masts as on the Hartley 16. Being untapered the mast bend was unsuitable so the solution was to move the hounds from 2/3 rds to 7/8 ths up the mast. This resulted in a taller jib, often second hand from a catamaran. Thus, the Australian Cherry 16 was born with an excellent performance for its size, all put together with economical components.
This set up became popular in Victoria where sailors came together to form a Cherry 16 Association, and later register the Class with the Victorian Yacht Council in 1987 who allocated a CBH of .590. The specifications were simple, the Cherry 16 hull, a Tasar main, a taller jib with 4.98 m hounds, and a Sharpie spinnaker. A very economical package for a 16 ft family cruising boat, and one which could be successfully raced as a small trailable yacht with off the beach dinghies and catamarans.
Bill Van oosal, the purchase of a new set of sails even from Doyles should be kept to last.
The rig on the Cherry 16 as designed was extremely inefficient. The photograph of the deck layout at the head of the blog is the perfect illustration of why the Cherry does not go to windward. Your boat can be improved by inexpensive modifications.
The first question is what rig do you have, the original NZ sail plan or the Victorian racing version developed in the mid 1980s?
My wife bought a Cherry five years ago for the simple reason it will fit into a 20' container for shipping round the world! A little different from her previous state championship winning Elliot. My designated task as a sailing coach was to refit and tune the boat.
Cherry 302 has the original sail plan and untapered mast. I have been waiting 30 years for someone to solve the lee helm problem cheaply and still have a usable boat with a boom above sitting head height and entry to the cabin. Help please.
Lee helm on the Cherry cheap and easy to resolve as mostly stated previously:
Move mast step back toward hatch
Move jib tack back a bit
Rake mast a bit
Centreboard right down
Keep weight more forward
Raise main as high up mast as possible to get the lower main in better wind
Decent NACA profile rudder also helps as a stalling rudder induces lee helm
Expensive (unnecessary unless racing) option is to get a bigger main. Maybe more roach if not new mast.
Windward performance cheaply fixed would be end of boom main sheeting and jib sheet track on cabin roof. Both of these reduce the too much twist in the sails as observed by most photos of Cherries sailing in this blog.
More vang, a cunningham and again NACA profiles.
Good smooth hull centreboard paint job
Expensive would be better and perhaps bigger sails (design & materials)
For windward performance the mast step must be moved aft to close to the hatch, at the same time the chainplates must be moved aft to compensate.
Moving the jib track inboard is essential, on CH 911 they are at minimum 8 degrees off the centreline which is along side the cabin hatch. In around 12 knots flattish water the jib at mid height should have 14% depth at 43%aft and a twist of 4 degrees.
The main sheet system must be end boom with the maximum height traveller to keep the boom on the centreline without closing the leech. The main at mid height should be a slightly flatter shape than the jib, 11% depth at 50% aft and 4 degrees of twist. It helps to have full length battens, while adjustable spreaders takes care of the desired mast bend.
The aim is to have some 3-4 degrees of weather helm. Another critical factor is having the correct centreboard profile, this is flat plate not NACA formula.
The cheapest way to get a larger main is to obtain a secondhand Tasar sail which just fits in with the lower black band of .325mm. This is what the class did for racing purposes way back in the early 1980s.If you are using the NZ size sail it may mean lowering the gooseneck a little.
I have been using an ex-Tasar main for years.You can fiddle with the full length battens to get the ideal shape for your mast.
Fortunately the Tasars went Mylar some six years ago so old dacron ones are a give away item. I noticed on the Tasar web site someone in Victoria recently was looking for one to go on a Cherry.The sail may come free but you may have to pay for the battens which can cost up to $100 as they can be used on any dinghy.
THE CHERRY 16 ASSOCIATION OF VICTORIA CLASS RULES 1988
FOR COMPETITION UNDER THE RACING RULES OF SAILING OF THE INTERNATIONAL YACHT RACING UNION
l. General
The object of the Cherry 16 Yacht Class Rules is to promote the establishment of a class of yacht, which while primarily designed for cruising, can compete in open entry race events. As the design is specifically for amateur construction, the Rules are therefore minimal and shall be interpreted in this amateur spirit and that of fair play.
2. Hull
2.1 The hull length, excluding fittings, shall be maximum 4.875m, minimum 4.825m.
2.2 The waterline length, excluding fittings, shall be maximum 4.130m.
2.3 The beam, excluding fittings, shall be a maximum 2.200m, minimum 2.100m
2.5 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point shall be minimum 1.850m and maximum 2.000m.
2.7 Construction shall be as specified in the Pelin Cherry 16 Plans of 1973 and subsequent modifications, while hull dimensions shall not exceed by ± 25mm the plan offsets in vertical and waterline planes.
2.8 Weight shall be a minimum of 220kg It shall not include food, clothing, stores, tool kits, motor or fuel, but shallinclude spars, sails, anchors, chains, and safety equipment required by these Class Rules.
3. Centreboard
3.1 The centreboard shall be constructed from steel plate.
3.2 The centreboard shall be cut in profile within ± 25mm of the outline shown in the 1973 plan.
.
4. Rudder
4.1 The rudder may by be constructed of any material.
4.2 The rudder may be pivoted or retractable.
5. Mast
5.1 The mast may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
5.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
5.2 The mast may be fitted with spreaders or diamonds of any length.
5.3 The mast length from heel point to the upper limit mark shall not exceed 5.500m..
5.4 The jib hoist height shall not exceed 4.930m..
5.5 The spinnaker hoist height shall not exceed 5.250m..
6. Boom
6.1 The boom may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
6.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
7. Spinnaker pole
7.1 The spinnaker pole may be constructed of any material.
7.2 The length of the spinnaker pole shall not exceed 2.236m excluding fittings.
8. Spar limit marks
8.1 The limit marks shall be 20mm wide in a contrasting colour to the mast and boom.
8.2 The relevant edge of the three required limit marks shall be as follows:
No 1. The Mainsail Lower Limit Mark- the upper edge of the mark shall be 0.325m above the mast foot.
No 2. The Mainsail Upper Limit Mark- the lower edge of the mark shall be 5.500m above the mast foot.
No 3. The Boom Outer Limit Mark- which shall be 2.375m from the aft side of the mast excluding track.
9. Mainsail, jib and spinnaker
9.1 The Mainsail may be constructed of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The sail shall be set within the limit marks on the mast and boom specified at CCR rule 8.2.
9.2 The Jib may be constricted of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The longest perpendicular shall not exceed 2.100m to the clew cringle.
9.3 The Spinnaker may be constructed of any material. When the sail is laid flat and unstretched, the maximum half leech width shall be 3.750m, and the maximum leech/luff length shall be 4.800m measured in a straight line head cringle to tack cringle.
9.5 Sails while in a race are restricted in number as follows: 1 x Mainsail, 2 x Jib, 2 x Spinnaker.
THESE ARE THE CRITICAL PART OF THE ORIGINAL RULES
The photo at the top of the blog should be changed as it is bad publicity for the class and the sail areas brought up to date. the photo shows nearly everything that was wrong with the original Cherry 16 rig. Mast step too far forward and jib tracks right out on the gunwale. No wonder boats like this had a poor reputation for bad lee helm and never going to windward. The owner of this Cherry added a massive outboard to make it useable, and soon put it up for sale as shown in these shots form the saleyard.
Was any visitor to the blog, or know an owner who was, a member of the Cherry 16 Association which existed from 1982 to 2005?
I am trying to track down history of early Cherry 16 racing. Nationals were held from 1983 to 1999, with Tim Holt and Warren Helwig being champions. Victorians held state championships from 1982 to 2003. NSW championship were held from 1983 to 1999 with Warren Helwig champion most of that period.
I have a copy of the 1988 Club rules used to get the CBH of .590,and two different drafts of the 2001 rules based on the ERS 2001. There was a bit of confusion on the mainsail whether to measure the luff length of just to have two black bands.
Any information would be very much appreciated.
Any one know what happened to Shivers who had a masthead jib and spinnaker with an extra 200mm on the main foot and a CBH of .605?
Gday. I need to move the jib track on my CH16 from the gunwale to the top of the cabin to reduce the angle from 15' to about 7-8'. This may seem a daft question but... should I place the track in a bow-aft line (i.e. a fixed angle but varying only the length of the track) or across or at an angle across (so I can vary the angle for reaching etc). Any explanations would be helpful.
Bill
Jib track fore-aft adjustment is the main thing for best foot/leech tension ratio for upwind performance. Useful but not so noticeable when you let it out for reaching. Putting it on the roof is really what matters. The fine tuning after that will negligible.
I have experimented with the jib positions on CH 911 and come up with the best practical solution to the hopeless original design.
The first is to have a fore and aft track set 8 degrees off the centreline. For a given jib the actual for and aft movement by wind strength is only some 10cm.This gives you sufficient change in the leech twist angle. 8 degrees is hard up against the cabin opening. The length of the track depends on the foot size of your jibs. CH 811 has four jibs so the track is 750mm long changing from 8 degrees to 11 degrees for the storm jib. The top jib leech ribbon is your control.
The second is a barber hauler system to move the jib out from 8 degrees to the cabin side for close reaching. I use 3mm dyneema rope. `The barber hauler ending in a Ronstan 20mm Orbit block on the jib sheet leads to the gunwhale 15 cm ahead of the chainplate, aft to a turning block, Harken 16mm airblock, then to a Harken micro carbon cleaton the inner edge of the deck. For windward work I use 10 degrees in light breezes, in progressively to 8 at 12 kots then out to 12 degrees at 30 knots. The line is continous to assist in quick adjustment. Matching the jib lower steering ribbon with the upper main leech ribbon is the control.
The third is the jib sheet. I use 6mm double braid polyester line and Ronstan orbit blocks. A single block on the track leading to a ratchet block fixed on the outer edge of the cabin, then in to a Harken Carbo cam cleat, better than the mini-carbo here, next to the track. This means the cleat is always in line regardless of the jib or setting. Again continuous sheet for easy control. For any for and aft/ sideways trim the sheet is only adjusted some 50mm going to windward.
Every thing is datum marked for easy retrim at a mark.
Three jibs are for racing progressively heavier Contender cloth AKS[very light kevlar], RS3 them RS 5. The fourth for above 30 knots is an ex Tasar jib.
The jib down haul is adjusted prior to the race to get the camber position right, as I use a furler when flying a spinnaker. There is also a 6:1 purchase on the halyard for marginally changing the camber while under way. I use wire to a 4mm tail round 16mm airblocks to a micro carbo cam cleat.
It sounds complex but it gives easy total control from 1-35 knot winds.
For the record I have a thirty page set of notes on sailing the Cherry to windward including trim and tactics.Too complex for the blog! However, here is a brief trim guide for 10 knots true wind which is a common sailing condition. It is one of seven sets of wind strength from zephyr to survival.
The jib shape is for three heights up the sail; shape is in three diamensions: the camber[fullness], the degree of leech twist and how far aft the position of maximum camber is.
TARGET- full shape with fairleads maximum 8 degrees off centreline with minimum sail twist.
Height Depth- twist -camber aft
25% 13% 4 degrees 39% 50% 15% 8 degrees 42% 75% 17% 12 degrees 44%
[i] Increase depth very marginally in waves
[ii] move point of maximum camber slightly more forward at top end
of the wind range unless the water is flat.
Target for Jib tufts
[1] luff steering- flowing up 45degrees 90% of the time
[2] leech- flowing to leeward occasionally
Jib Trim Controls
[1] Forestay- moderate tension in stay, tighter in flat water
[2] Downhaul- light to moderate pressure depending on overall tuft flow
[3]Sheet- mostly hard on
[4]Fairlead fore and aft- so sheet comes down at around 60 degrees such that all luff tell tales react identically
[5]Fairlead side to side- close to centreline at 8 degrees in flat water and some 9 degrees in moderate waves
[6]Downhaul- moderate tension so that there a hint of wrinkles on the luff
HOPE THIS IS OF USE
Sorry if the blog layout made my trim table difficult to understand so I will give an example.
At 10-12 knot breeze the jib fairlead is 8 degrees of the centreline. The shape of the jib varies according to its height.
At 50% half way up the jib, the depth of the sail is 15%, the leech is twisted 8% [a total of 16 degrees off the centreline}, the maximum depth[camber] is 42% aft.
The impact 8 degrees you are pointing high, full jib gives you power in the moderate wind, minimum twist helps the pointing, 42% aft means the wind flow off the jib keeps the slot open. The main at that point should have maximum camber 50% aft.
All of this depends on having end boom sheeting. On CH 911 'Stoned' the boom would be as close as possible to the centreline, helped by the end block being only 40cm above the transom. At the mast the main is 325mm above the deck with the luff 5.25m long. At 12 knots breeze minimum main downhaul, which is a 4:1 system lead to cleats mid way out on the cabin top for ease of control.
The maximum sidewards use of the jib fairlead going to windward is 8-12 degrees. The main traveller matches the angle being from 0-4 degrees which keeps the slot optimum.
If you want an outboard then put a hook on both the traveller and its control line so with the engine down the boom is controlled at the side of the transom.
If you have mid boom main sheeting forget racing and enjoy pleasent cruising.
I was asked for the full version of the class rules. This is from the last nationals ever held in 1991. An attempt was made to bring it up to date in 2000 but no championship ever took place as`planned on Port Philip so it remaind draft. It would be great if Cherrys start racing again, Melissa was the only recent one. Hope this helps.
THE CHERRY 16 YACHT ASSOCIATION OF VICTORIA CLASS RULES
FOR COMPETITION UNDER THE RACING RULES OF SAILING
OF THE INTERNATIONAL YACHT RACING UNION
l. General
The object of the Cherry 16 Yacht Class Rules is to promote the establishment of a class of small trailable yachts, which while primarily designed for cruising, can compete in race events. As the design is specifically for amateur construction, the Rules are therefore minimal and shall be interpreted in this amateur spirit and that of fair play.
2. Hull
2.1 The hull length, excluding gunwale and fittings, shall be 4.86m + 25mm..
2.2 The waterline length shall be 4.45m + 25mm .
2.3 The beam, excluding gunwales, shall be a maximum 2.18m + 25mm..
2.4 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point to the front of the mast shall be minimum 1.85m and maximum 2.000m.
2.5 Construction shall be as specified in the Pelin Cherry 16 Plans of 1973 while hull dimensions shall not exceed by ± 25mm the plan offsets in vertical and horizontal planes.
2.6 Total yacht weight shall be a minimum of 220kg which shall include spars, sails, and safety equipment required by Class Rule 12.
3. Centreboard
The centreboard shall be constructed from steel plate.
.
4. Rudder
4.1 The rudder may by be constructed of any material.
4.2 The rudder may be pivoted or retractable.
5. Mast
5.1 The mast may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
5.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
5.2 The mast may be fitted with spreaders or diamonds of any length.
5.3 The mast length shall not exceed 5.50m.from the heel point to the upper limit mark.
5.4 The jib hoist height shall not exceed 4.93m.from the heel point.
5.5 The spinnaker hoist height shall not exceed 5.32m from the heel point.
6. Boom
6.1 The boom may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
6.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
7. Spinnaker pole
7.1 The spinnaker pole may be constructed of any material.
7.2 The length of the spinnaker pole shall not exceed 2.24m excluding fittings.
8. Spar limit marks
8.1 The limit marks shall be 20mm wide in a contrasting colour to the mast and boom.
8.2 The relevant edge of the three required limit marks shall be as follows:
No 1. The Mainsail Upper Limit Mark- the lower edge of the mark shall be maximum 5.50m above the
mast foot.
No 2. The Mainsail Lower Limit Mark- the upper edge of the mark shall be 5.26m below the lower edge
of the mainsail upper limit mark.
No 3. The Boom Outer Limit Mark- the inner edge which shall be 2.35m from the aft side of the mast
excluding track.
9. Mainsail, jib and spinnaker
9.1 The Mainsail may be constructed of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The sail shall be set within the limit marks on the mast and boom specified at CCR rule 8.2.
9.2 The Jib may be constricted of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The longest perpendicular shall not exceed 1.88m to the clew cringle.
9.3 The Spinnaker may be constructed of any material. When the sail is laid flat and unstretched, the maximum half leech width shall be 3.75m, and the maximum leech/luff length shall be 4.80m measured in a straight line head cringle to tack cringle.
I was asked for the full version of the class rules. This is from the last nationals ever held in 1991. An attempt was made to bring it up to date in 2000 but no championship ever took place as`planned on Port Philip so it remaind draft. It would be great if Cherrys start racing again, Melissa was the only recent one. Hope this helps.
THE CHERRY 16 YACHT ASSOCIATION OF VICTORIA CLASS RULES
FOR COMPETITION UNDER THE RACING RULES OF SAILING
OF THE INTERNATIONAL YACHT RACING UNION
l. General
The object of the Cherry 16 Yacht Class Rules is to promote the establishment of a class of small trailable yachts, which while primarily designed for cruising, can compete in race events. As the design is specifically for amateur construction, the Rules are therefore minimal and shall be interpreted in this amateur spirit and that of fair play.
2. Hull
2.1 The hull length, excluding gunwale and fittings, shall be 4.86m + 25mm..
2.2 The waterline length shall be 4.45m + 25mm .
2.3 The beam, excluding gunwales, shall be a maximum 2.18m + 25mm..
2.4 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point to the front of the mast shall be minimum 1.85m and maximum 2.000m.
2.5 Construction shall be as specified in the Pelin Cherry 16 Plans of 1973 while hull dimensions shall not exceed by ± 25mm the plan offsets in vertical and horizontal planes.
2.6 Total yacht weight shall be a minimum of 220kg which shall include spars, sails, and safety equipment required by Class Rule 12.
3. Centreboard
The centreboard shall be constructed from steel plate.
.
4. Rudder
4.1 The rudder may by be constructed of any material.
4.2 The rudder may be pivoted or retractable.
5. Mast
5.1 The mast may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
5.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
5.2 The mast may be fitted with spreaders or diamonds of any length.
5.3 The mast length shall not exceed 5.50m.from the heel point to the upper limit mark.
5.4 The jib hoist height shall not exceed 4.93m.from the heel point.
5.5 The spinnaker hoist height shall not exceed 5.32m from the heel point.
6. Boom
6.1 The boom may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
6.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
7. Spinnaker pole
7.1 The spinnaker pole may be constructed of any material.
7.2 The length of the spinnaker pole shall not exceed 2.24m excluding fittings.
8. Spar limit marks
8.1 The limit marks shall be 20mm wide in a contrasting colour to the mast and boom.
8.2 The relevant edge of the three required limit marks shall be as follows:
No 1. The Mainsail Upper Limit Mark- the lower edge of the mark shall be maximum 5.50m above the
mast foot.
No 2. The Mainsail Lower Limit Mark- the upper edge of the mark shall be 5.26m below the lower edge
of the mainsail upper limit mark.
No 3. The Boom Outer Limit Mark- the inner edge which shall be 2.35m from the aft side of the mast
excluding track.
9. Mainsail, jib and spinnaker
9.1 The Mainsail may be constructed of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The sail shall be set within the limit marks on the mast and boom specified at CCR rule 8.2.
9.2 The Jib may be constricted of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The longest perpendicular shall not exceed 1.88m to the clew cringle.
9.3 The Spinnaker may be constructed of any material. When the sail is laid flat and unstretched, the maximum half leech width shall be 3.75m, and the maximum leech/luff length shall be 4.80m measured in a straight line head cringle to tack cringle.
I was asked for the full version of the class rules. This is from the last nationals ever held in 1991. An attempt was made to bring it up to date in 2000 but no championship ever took place as`planned on Port Philip so it remaind draft. It would be great if Cherrys start racing again, Melissa was the only recent one. Hope this helps.
THE CHERRY 16 YACHT ASSOCIATION OF VICTORIA CLASS RULES
FOR COMPETITION UNDER THE RACING RULES OF SAILING
OF THE INTERNATIONAL YACHT RACING UNION
l. General
The object of the Cherry 16 Yacht Class Rules is to promote the establishment of a class of small trailable yachts, which while primarily designed for cruising, can compete in race events. As the design is specifically for amateur construction, the Rules are therefore minimal and shall be interpreted in this amateur spirit and that of fair play.
2. Hull
2.1 The hull length, excluding gunwale and fittings, shall be 4.86m + 25mm..
2.2 The waterline length shall be 4.45m + 25mm .
2.3 The beam, excluding gunwales, shall be a maximum 2.18m + 25mm..
2.4 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point to the front of the mast shall be minimum 1.85m and maximum 2.000m.
2.5 Construction shall be as specified in the Pelin Cherry 16 Plans of 1973 while hull dimensions shall not exceed by ± 25mm the plan offsets in vertical and horizontal planes.
2.6 Total yacht weight shall be a minimum of 220kg which shall include spars, sails, and safety equipment required by Class Rule 12.
3. Centreboard
The centreboard shall be constructed from steel plate.
.
4. Rudder
4.1 The rudder may by be constructed of any material.
4.2 The rudder may be pivoted or retractable.
5. Mast
5.1 The mast may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
5.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
5.2 The mast may be fitted with spreaders or diamonds of any length.
5.3 The mast length shall not exceed 5.50m.from the heel point to the upper limit mark.
5.4 The jib hoist height shall not exceed 4.93m.from the heel point.
5.5 The spinnaker hoist height shall not exceed 5.32m from the heel point.
6. Boom
6.1 The boom may be constructed of any material, and may be tapered.
6.2 The maximum cross section shall not exceed 0.080m..
7. Spinnaker pole
7.1 The spinnaker pole may be constructed of any material.
7.2 The length of the spinnaker pole shall not exceed 2.24m excluding fittings.
8. Spar limit marks
8.1 The limit marks shall be 20mm wide in a contrasting colour to the mast and boom.
8.2 The relevant edge of the three required limit marks shall be as follows:
No 1. The Mainsail Upper Limit Mark- the lower edge of the mark shall be maximum 5.50m above the
mast foot.
No 2. The Mainsail Lower Limit Mark- the upper edge of the mark shall be 5.26m below the lower edge
of the mainsail upper limit mark.
No 3. The Boom Outer Limit Mark- the inner edge which shall be 2.35m from the aft side of the mast
excluding track.
9. Mainsail, jib and spinnaker
9.1 The Mainsail may be constructed of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The sail shall be set within the limit marks on the mast and boom specified at CCR rule 8.2.
9.2 The Jib may be constricted of any material, and the number and length of battens is optional. The longest perpendicular shall not exceed 1.88m to the clew cringle.
9.3 The Spinnaker may be constructed of any material. When the sail is laid flat and unstretched, the maximum half leech width shall be 3.75m, and the maximum leech/luff length shall be 4.80m measured in a straight line head cringle to tack cringle.
Can we arrange a Cherry get together some time after Xmas. Any ideas ?
Cheers Will
Ch380
Sorry the blog repeated my comment, it became stuck on the visual recognition. Ir should have included the other part of the rules!
11. Standing rigging
11.1 The Side Stays shall be made of minimum 3/32” diameter 1x19 stain1ess steel wire.
11.2 A Forestay may be fitted for safety reasons, but will not be taken into account in the measurement of foretriangle height or foretriangle base unless the jib is fastened to the stay, in which use it shall be made of
minimum 5/64” diameter 1x19 stainless steel wire.
12. Safety equipment
12.1 The boat shall carry safety equipment and markings in accordance with the appropriate Australian Yachting Federation and State Authority Safety Standards.
12.2 The boat shall carry in a readily accessible stowage an anchor of a minimum weight of 3kg, and a warp of minimum length of 25m with a minimum diameter of 6mm which shall include a minimum of 2 meters of galvanised chain
12.3 Either an outboard motor with a minimum rating of 2hp, or two oars or paddles shall be carried.
12.4 Foot straps may be fitted for the safety of crew.
13. Class Based Handicap Rating
The Handicap Rating of the Class in open and club events shall be the Class Based Handicap of the Victorian Yachting Council to which these rules have been submitted.
These Class Rules are to apply from 1st September 1988
Any dispute as to measurement interpretation of these Class Rules shall be decided by the Management Committee of the Cherry 16 Association of Victoria.
Cherry 16 Yacht Association of Victoria, Yarrawonga, Victoria.
Rule 8.2 modified at Nationals in Canberra 1991.
On the ammendment, people were buying 18ft mast lengths with the result the distance between black bands became too short.
to Bill Van Oosal
Regarding your question about the location of the jib track, my suggestion if you only have one jib is the track should go side to side unless you are going to fit a jib barber hauler. Fore and aft track by itself is useless
If you have simple midsheet boom set up, the main fails off due to the distance between deck and boom.
This means the jib will have to be set out to 14-16 degrees depending on main shape.
With only one jib there is less need to move the clew fore and aft. Slight changes can be made presail by adjusting the jib on the luff wire.
Side to side movement is more critical over a 5 degree range. Thus, the track is better that way and it does not matter if you had the initial jib angle wrong.
Warren Helwig won several state championships with his track bolted along the back of the cabin on a Ronstan 19mm track with a swivelling dead eye/track stop fitting. Do not get a fitting with the cam cleats on as it is difficult to let go of the jib in an emergency.
Any one racing a Cherry 16 these days?
How are you going, any tips?
At one time there were several on Port Philip but not seen one recently.
See building and Fixing for improved jib track placement.
I've just realised that the boat shown with a transom step and fabricated pushpit in the fixing and building section is the one I bought recently.
Have had her out a few times now, and agree that lee helm is a problem. Its not a massive amount of helm, and returns to positive if heeled, so hopefully just adding a bit of rake will sort it.
Over the Christmas break I intend to give her a decent tune up, as the family will be racing her over the new years break.
It's an "all in" regatta, mostly dinghies, so does anyone know which nz dinghies we should hope to hang with?
On our few brief runs so far, we seem close to starlings, sunbursts and toppers around a short course, but its been fairly light, and not much windward stuff.
Sooo.....
After adding around 4 inches of rake, she now has almost dead neutral helm. A little more rake and we should be laughing.
Over the weekend we had a chance to line up with a fast Hartley for a short test run, and although he was pointing marginally higher, we seemed to have comparable speed.
Downwind and reaching we seemed very close. He did eventually run us down, but this was in around 5-8kts of breeze, no kite, and it took him over a mile to get 4 boatlengths on us.
So far I'm really pleased with the boat, I think the Cherry was an excellent choice for us as my family love sailing on her, and performance is good. Also they are so easy to handle, both ashore and afloat, due to the light weight.
Hello All,
My name is Felix and I am a new owner of a Cherry and also new to sailing. Had previously sailed a small Topper Taz and got hooked, hence the Cherry purchase. The previous owner had the boat sitting around for a year or two and requires some paint and varnish for a restoration that never completed. Is there any owners/interested persons in Auckland who can teach me how to sail this Cherry?
Her sails was eatern away during storage with a few holes the size of basket balls in the mains, so I will be getting a new set of main and jib for it. I noticed a few people & PaulCH911 recommends a larger / modified mains, it would be a good time to incoporate the changes, would someone tell me what I need to tell the sail makers?
Look foward to learning muchly from you all.
Cheers
Felix
zapf001@hotmail.com
Gday Felix
About the sails. I had to make up a sail plan for Doyles sails in Melbourne. The good thing is that Doyles already had a plan for a cherry 16 main that fitted perfectly the Aussie modified plan. Apparently the original NZ sail plan was more for reaching. If your dimensions are the same as mine then there is a full plan available now. The main difference in my plan from the original is "I believe" that the mast was stepped aft towards the front of the companionway and the jib tracks are on the cabin.
cheers
Bill
Hi Felix,
Although I'm still fairly new to cherrys, I've been in the game for approaching 30 years and have internationally recognised quals as an instructor and racing coach.
I live in Manukau, and usually sail from Weymouth, but would be happy to travel around a bit if you want to meet up or compare notes.
As an aside, I spent time in the UK helping to develop racing rigs for the Topper/Topaz boats, although I never got to sail a Taz.
Aaron.
Hi Felix
A cheap mainsail is to get a second hand Tasar main. The class went to Mylar cloth about four years ago so the numerous dacron ones lying around, I picked up three without battens at no cost!
At present I am on holiday in Afghanistan until the end of the month, after which I will send photos and diagrams.
The critical item is the mast bend. An easy test is support the heel and tip then suspend 28lbs from the hounds. Measure the offsets and this will give you a good starting point for the luff round. Thus will differ if the mast has taper.
Set up the boat with about 4 degrees weather helm, this needs the mast to be moved aft with a J of 2m and a square top to the main. As for cloth I use Contender RS 3 for the main with full length battens and light weather jib with RS 5 for the heavy weather jib. This covers up to 30 knot without reefing. While the laminate cloth costs about the same, when cut tri-radial after a season it loses its performance edge. Depending on how serious you are go for two spinnakers, the heavy weather flatter and narrower. A friend capsized his Cherry under spinnaker in 45 knots which is good Auckland weather!
Even with maximum go faster gear, the Cherry is about 5% slower than a well set up Hartley 18. I have set up both for friends and used another dinghy as the yardstick.
Hi,
Is the hull shape as used by the Victorian Class the same as the original 1978 Pellin Plans and is it just the sail plan that has had all the development? I did note mention of finer bow and flatter aft section (less deadrise)?
Thanks,
Al.
Hi Alasdair
The Victorian rule changes to the original plan basically applied to the sails.Main, jib and spinnaker are all larger. The spinnaker for example is near 14sqm and flown less than 500mm from the top of the mast.
The hull rule is the dimensions shall be within 25mm of the six cross section hull shapes of the plan.That gives you a little scope to fine the bows and adjust the rocker, but in reality the tolerances were to take account of variations in boat building skills.
One ACT builder pushed the tolerances to the limit but the end result was less than missing one wind shift.
Thanks Paul,
That's what I thought. My reason for asking was to check if I built from the Pellin plans I wouldn't be building an "out of date" hull.
As for reducing rocker, I could probably pick that, but I must admit my racing skills & Sail tuning abilities are much more of a handicap.
I’ve always thought the Cherry had too much shear, but looks like I’d have to live with that if I wanted to build a measurable boat.
Al Campbell
Alasdair,
The shape of the Cherry 16 is a function of the limitations of the construction technique of stich and glue, plus a single chine. Ideally it should have more rocker and round in the bottom for greater buoyancy to keep the chines out of the water. Another problem is the rake of the bows; using the tortured ply technique with darts theoriticaly it would be possible to extend the waterline and have a finer bow.
As designed the Cherry will not go to windward due to the mast being too far forward and the jib fairleads out at the gunwale; fortunately these can be corrected. Moving the mast strut aft limits access to the cabin as it becomes a tight squeeze if you are over 75kg like me.
However,in spite of the problems the Cherry can be well set up for fun racing. Mine has over $2000 of Hawken fittings including some 25 cleats and 40 blocks, plus $4000 in new sails during the past 18 months using the latest cloth technology and a square headed main B14 style.It's still cheap compared with a new Flying Fifteen at $50,000.
Paul,
It does sound like most of the “short comings” in the design have been covered by the work of the Victorian Association.
With respect to the mast support, would the rules allow an interior cabin top beam as used in the Trailaway yachts Redfin 520?
I’ve got a Sabre hanging up under the carport and I’m always amazed at the shape they’ve managed to get in the bow of that – but that’s only 4mm ply.
I have an old Hartley TS16 and am attracted by the lower weight of the Ch16 when launching & retrieving with only the help of non boating friends. A clean, clear finished interior so you can spot leaks is also a plus.
Thanks,
AL.
hi ive just brought the cherry in the second photo from the top named nouity bouys found it in a back yard of industrail area in whakatane bop nz needs a bit of paint on top but sails and rigging great.brought it to teach family how to sail are there any other cherry 16 in bop ?
Hi Alasdair
Like you I have a Sabre in my garage/boat shed!
If you want to see what shapes you can get with the stich and glue technique have a look at the i550 spoprtsboat web site. There are some great photos of construction.
For a real fine entry a technique used on the early wooden NS14s was called tortured ply. You kept bending the ply helped by as many friends willing to turn up in exchange for a free beer; when it would bend no more you cut a dart out like a dressmaker uses, and sewed it together so getting the fine entry you always dreamed about.
Hi All
Just acquired my Cherry Spindrift. She was built in 1983 from a kit from Burns Leisure Industries in Canberra. Unused for the past ten years sitting on a farm near Bega. So my plan for the next four months is to make her seaworthy. The major item will be getting new sails as the existing ones are covered in rust stains.
hi all,glad i found this site!
i acquired a cherry a couple of weeks ago,
she's in reasonable nick, needs a bit of work but it'll be well finished by the time summer comes around.
i plan on making a few of the modifications suggested on here to the jib tracks etc
would you suggest moving the mast as well as the jib tracks?
i'm planning on learning to sail on the cherry so how much would i notice the modifications?
also i have to make a new rudder ,i have the case but the rudder was missing,i'm a carpenter so it shouldn't pose to much of a problem. does anyone have any sizes for their rudder i can use?if not i can scale from a photo but its not very accurate!
cheers in advance,
martin
mworswick don't worry too much about any modifications if you are a beginner to sailing. Just get it structurally safe and sound and get out on the water in reasonable weather. As you get experience you will then know what you should adjust.
Hi and Welcome, Martin.
I'm going to disagree with the poster ahead of me, and say that I found our Cherry quite difficult to control when we first got her, as the boat had terrible lee helm (kept turning away from the wind).
This made tacking quite dangerous, as the boat would slow down during the turn, and then blow around until side on to the wind, regardless of where I put the tiller. This happened in all wind conditions.
I suggest finding someone who knows what they are doing at the local yacht club, and asking them to help you rake the mast to a suitable angle.
At present, we have maybe 8-10 inches back from vertical with the boat floating empty, and I'm adding more angle next weekend.
Are you in AUS or NZL? If you are in NZ,either Auckland or Waikato, I can help out a bit.
Regards, Aaron.
Hi again guys.
Just a quick note to say we went out for a blast around the Manukau today to follow the Hartleys.
With the boat still set up according to the original plans, and kiwi rig, we were very close to them downwind and reaching, but suffered a bit upwind.
At this point all we have done is rake the mast back a bit, maybe 8-10 inches, to remove some lee helm and make her sailable.
Our actual pointing angle was pretty close to the Hartleys, although the lack of windward bite from the rudder meant we drifted off a bit.
There was also a Quicksilver, which we seemed to be a good match for, although we did manage to mess things up a bit!
In the gusts, up close to 20 knots, we were pulling them in, but in the lighter stuff they had lots more height.
Before next fortnight, I'll rig her on the driveway and get the rake I want, and maybe make a jibstick.
Oh, and did I mention we were sailing with a five year old, and a newborn? That really slows down the tactics!
cheers,
Aaron.
PS google Manukau Sailing for my blog, and keep up to date with west coast sailing around Auckland.
thanks for the replies guys,i'm in the process of fixing the boat up and i'm finding a few unanticipated things to fix up.i figure i may as well shift rhe jib tracks and the base for the mast at the same time, i'm thinking if i'm learning to sail then i might as well make it easy on myself!
i'm located in arrowtown,near queenstown.i'm planning on initially learning on lake hayes and wakatipu later,after i'm confident enough i figure anywhere from manapouri to ohau is an easy drive away:)
hi im thinking of building a cherry to sail with a fireball rig i have laying around. Any thoughts as to how this might sail. also any ideas to personalise the hull. i will be sailing with a l plate crew.
I have just bought a Cherry 16 and am thinking of racing it at the local club. Some years ago I raced a Mirror there but the Cherry is different. I would welcome ideas and any views on go-fast gear.
Re the Fireball rig question,having raced one I suggest the increased mast height, the main and spinnaker will work fine. However, the jib may not fit due to it being to low cut. You could experiment with the hound height to see if you can get clearance over the cabin top. In general with the increased size of the main the boat should balance rather than have the standard lee helm problem of the original set-up. The Fireball spinnaker is the ideal size and shape for use on the Cherry.
thanks paul. i dont intend to race so if interference is a prob i will just use a short strop at the jib tack. my biggest concern is the fireball jib foot is only about 1.5m this will mean the clew will be a long way from the mast. will it still be effective? my origional idea was to step the mast on the foredeck but it appears that wont work if lee helm is already an issue. any feedback is highly valued.
thanks paul. i dont intend to race so if interference is a prob i will just use a short strop at the jib tack. my biggest concern is the fireball jib foot is only about 1.5m this will mean the clew will be a long way from the mast. will it still be effective? my origional idea was to step the mast on the foredeck but it appears that wont work if lee helm is already an issue. any feedback is highly valued.
Hi guys, I have raced a fireball on the UK circuit, and had wondered how well the rig would fit. I still have a jib and kite here. I agree the kite should be almost perfect.
I don't think jib clearance would be a problem, and I know several others might disagree, but you could simply sheet it outside the cabin top. With the increased area, you'll probably find yourself easing sheets and pinching quite a bit anyway.
Or with the foot being short, you could make it into a self tacker, either boomed or tracked.
On a vaguely related topic, I have now whacked a lot of rake into my standard rig, and now have almost neutral helm. In any sort of breeze I have weather helm. I still want a little more lift for safety, so need to buy shorter shackles for the shrouds, but that should be all thats required.
hi everyone, i got my cherry plans this morning and am reading through them. the plans have no hull numbers on them. is this normal? are numbers issued after measurement? through an association? ive only built one boat before (not a cherry) and this had numbers on the plans. how do i go about getting a sail/hull number organized?
At one stage there was a class association which isuued sail numbers and measured boats. The organisation folded some 10 years ago. I suggest you chose any number after 500 and it will be unique. I have a copy of the class rules as approved for the last nationals held at Canberra in 2001.
There is no problem in building the hull, except the mast support position. As the design does not balance it is necessary to move the mast step aft as far as you possible. This means moving the mast support aft to line up.
The plan shows the original NZ rig which is adequate for strong breeze cruising, but otherwise gives poor performance. The Australian rig as set up by the Victorian sailors is far superior.
Another crucial change is to move the jib fairlead position to the top of the cabin. The plan position is useless for going to windward as you need a maximum angle of eleven degrees.
My boat 'Stoned' is set up for racing with fully battened large roached main, which balances the boat perfectly for the ideal two degrees of weather helm going to windward.
Good luck with your project.
Hi Guys, just found a cherry up for grabs on trademe.
The trailer is a bit rough, and the outside of the hull needs a spruce up, but it's got a lot of gear with it.
Here's the link:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/trailersailers/auction-413821054.htm
hi
my fixing up is coming along well and i'm thinking about shifting the mast position soon but,after looking at the pictures of other cherrys i'm not entirely sure it needs to be moved.
could anyone provide the measurment from the centreboard pivot to the mast locating lug for the original or the recommended positions? or a front of boat to mast position measurement.
cheers
martin
Martin
From the rules 2.4 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point to the front of the mast shall be minimum 1.85m and maximum 2.000m.
I have mine at the maximum 2.000, but I moved the chainplate aft 100mm to compensate.
Martin to add to paul ch911's comments. from the plans mast is stepped 5'10" from bow.
cboard pivot hole measured from my plans is 84 1/4" from aft end of cboard case - ie. inside of transom and 7 1/4" down from top of case ( dont forget to add thickness of floor if necessary). hope this helps.
Does anyone have a copy of the Cherry 16 rules published by the Victorian Cherry 16 Association? I believe they approved bigger sails than the original plan, I have seen two sailing on Port Philip Bay with exTasar fully battened mains which an owner said was the Australian approved pattern for racing on the Victorian CBH.
David
I am not sure about bigger sizes. I have just had a sail plan made by Col Anderson at Doyle Sails.
btw I plan to sail a bit this Jan on Port Phillip. maybe we can get a few together?
Bill
I am not sure about sizes. I have just had sails delivered from Col Anderson at Doyles.
I plan to sail on port Phillip this Jan. Maybe we can get a few together. B
Hi Guys,
I've recently been offered a Hartley 16 rig. I'd need to change the mast base to match the one on the deck.
Does anyone know whether this has been done before, and how it performed?
I'd like to give it a shot, especially the bigger main, which should create some decent weather helm, I'm just a big worried about the big untapered stick being too heavy if we got a little heel on.
I normally sail with young family, even when racing.
---------------
On a separate note, the Auckland club I usually sail with is interested in running some low-key cruising style races for less competitive trailer yachts.
So, any Auckland Cherry owners, if you also have friends with old Hartleys, Whitings or similar, contact me and we'll try to get things sorted out.
To Van oosal
The sail plan adopted by the Cherry 16 Victorian Association for racing purposes was some 20% bigger than original PelinPlan designed for NZ heavy conditions. The specifications used to be on Yachting Victoria website under CBH detail list.
The main differences were main fully battened with a big roach, hounds some metre higher with a taller jib, the spinnaker much higher and wider with an area nearly double at some 14 sqm.
I am not sure what size the Doyles sails are but check your mast. For the Australian rig, the hound height should be 4.930m above the base, the main luff 5.26m and the spinnaker width 3.75m. If Doyles uesd the sail dimensions from the Pelin plan it is the cruising NZ rig.
To Arron, the Hartley 16 a main foot of 3.4 m against the Cherry 2.4m, thus you may have problems of too much weather helm. The only way to answer your question is to try it. The other concern is whether the jib clew is too low due to a different hull/cabin profile
Hi David, the last version of the Rules came from Cherry Ripe and was used for the Nationals in Canberra where it was agreed as applying by NSW and Victotian owners. As you can see the sails were bigger. Someone made the hull profile out of hardboard to check the shape as a couple of keen types had nodified the bow to a much finer entry by using the tortured ply technique with a series of darts cut out dress maker style then sewn together.
THE CHERRY 16 YACHT ASSOCIATION CLASS RULES
FOR YACHTS COMPETING UNDER THE AYF RACING RULES OF SAILING
l. GENERAL
1.1 The object of the Class Rules is to promote the establishment of a class of trailable yacht, which while primarily designed for cruising, can compete in race events. As the design is specifically for amateur construction, the Rules are minimal and shall be interpreted in this amateur spirit. A yacht which marginally exceeds a rule may be granted class compliance where considered appropriate by the Class Management Committee and not conflicting with the spirit of fair play.
1.2. The Rules are further intended to ensure that the yacht fully satisfies the requirements of the AYF Special Regulations Part 1. Thus, a yacht subject to these Class Rules must strictly comply with the AYF regulation 3.01.4, “A boat shall be soundly constructed, well maintained and suitable for the event for which she is entered. It must be properly rigged, and must meet the standards set forth herein.’
1.3 The Cherry 16 for the purpose of the AYF Special Regulations part 2 is a Small Trailable Yacht when these Regulations are prescribed in the Notice of Race as applying to the event.
1.4 In accordance with the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing 2001-2004 [ERS] rule A1.2, the ERS rules are applicable to the Cherry 16 Class Rules except where specifically amended.
1.5 In accordance with ERS rule C3.3, the Cherry 16 Class Rules [CCR] are Open Class Rules where anything not specifically prohibited is permitted.
1.6 In the CCR, the word “shall” is mandatory and the word “may” is permissive.
2. HULL
2.1 The hull length, excluding fittings, shall be maximum 4.875m, minimum 4.825m.
2.2 The waterline length, excluding fittings, shall be a maximum of 4.430m.
2.3 The beam, excluding fittings, shall be maximum 2.200m, minimum 2.150m
2.5 The foretriangle base measured from the jib attachment point shall be minimum 1.850m and maximum 2.000m.
2.6 Construction shall be as specified in the Pelin Cherry 16 Plans of 1973.
2.7 Hull dimensions shall be within + 25mm of the six cross section hull shapes of the plan
2.8 Minimum weight shall be 220kg measured with the boat in racing trim for a Category 7 event.
It will include spars, sails, anchors, chains, and safety equipment required by the Class Rules.
It will not include an outboard motor and fuel.
3. CENTREBOARD
3.1 The centerboard shall be constructed from steel plate.
3.2 The centerboard shall be cut in profile within ± 25mm of the outline shown in the 1978 plan.
3.2 The centerboard shall be locked down while racing.
4. RUDDER
4.1 The rudder may by be constructed of any material.
4.2 The rudder may be pivoted or retractable.
Hi,
Great site! I acquired my Cherry 16 during the winter from a guy in Sydney and towed it back to Adelaide. I've heard that there's at least one other in this area but I've yet to see one.
I'm pretty sure mine is the one in the photo at the top of the page although it looks a bit different now. The jib tracks are along the back edge of the cabin and the mast step has been modified. The mast looks like a bit has been chopped off the base and it is raked back. Perhaps in line with the mods described elsewhere in this blog to reduce lee helm.
There's some more work to do on it so I haven't taken it out yet. Does anyone know how to lock down to centreboard? I was also wondering if a boom vang was necessary or desirable. There is not much mast below the boom so it would be at a shallow angle if attached to the foot of the mast.
Steve
Hi Steve
Welcome to the site.
On my centreboard I have a line going the reverse way to the downhaul ending in a cleat; this prevents the board involuntary coming up. Let it off before attempting to lift the board1 I have a very strong piece of shock cord in the system for a bit of give when accidently going aground.
The boom vang is essential off the wind, even at a 60 degree angle the control is worth while.
I occasionaly sail in SA at Goolwa and Milang where the Cherry's shallow draft is useful, certainly compared with the 2.1m on my wife's Elliot 6.5. Lake Alexandrina being shallow and 30 km wide has a real heavy chop above 30+ knots, so with the blunt bows going to windward is difficult and wet.
Hi Paul, thanks for the reply. I'll try to rig-up a boom vang and some means of holding down the centreboard.
I think given my elementary sailing skills I'll avoid 30+ knot winds for now!
Steve
I'm still trying to work out the centreboard lock-down mechanism. On my boat I have a single cable that comes off the centreboard before going around a pulley. This cable has a block and tackle to the stern and I presume it's for pulling up the centreboard.
I conclude that there never was a lock-down mechanism or this boat or it has broken or been removed. Are they standard fit? Would fitting a new one involve dropping the centreboard out of the boat? Any advice would be much appreciated.
steve the plans show a metal tube on the centreboard to attach the lock down mechanism - line shock cord etc. when installed this bracket would be to the top and front of board about 45degrees to pivot pin. even if you could see it by looking up into the centrecase i doubt if you could rig anything up without dropping the board out of the case.
Hi Matt, thanks for the reply. I'll have a closer look at the centreboard from under the boat.
gday all, not sure if this is the place to post this add - feel free to delete if its inapropriate, but just spotted a cherry up for sale:
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Boats/Sail-Boats/AdNumber=TP004983888
sound like it needs a bit of a tidy but the price seems right. tell your friends if you live close enough.
Gday all,
ive got a bit of a problem. ive wired the hull panels of my cherry together and the hull measures 4.75metres long, which is the size given at the top of this blog (and elsewhere). however according to the cherry class rules the hull should be 100mm longer (4.85m) have others had this problem? how did you resolve it. i'm tempted to leave it the way it is as im not going to race it but i will sell one day and i would like it to be a measurable hull.
Matt
The Specifications at the top of the blog are incorrect. The figure for LOA given on the plan is 4.864m.This figure is also used on the Yachting Victoria CBH detail list.
The class rules have a variation to allow for building differences.
If you are worried then add a stem head merged into the gunwale. In reality no one will worry.
Hi all grant here from nt just bought a cherry 16 sail#69r,a very well built boat from ceder ply but with no history. Anyone know anything about this boat?.it had charts of hervy bay in it. And from what I know it has been in darwin since 2004
Any knowledge would be appreciated
Thanks all
A little bit cheeky but.....
Any Auckland Cherry (or other small TY) owners, come out for a sail with us next weekend. Manukau Harbour, Manurewa area.
It's tentatively called a race series, but its all about being there, having fun, and finding your limits.
Copy and paste the link to find out more.
http://www.sportsground.co.nz/files/Site/152/74/Pdf/120102213803VSJDDDLY.pdf
Jaxsen, feel free to delete this if you feel it's not appropriate - although all I'm trying to do is keep small trailer yacht sailing happening.
Hi, how can I post photos to this blog? Thanks
email any Cherry 16 related photos to jaxsen_lee@hotmail.com and I will post them for you.
I noticed there's a Cherry on Ebay at the moment. Queensland. $430 with 6 days to go.
Does anyone know what the mainsail, jib (foot, leech, luff) and mast dimensions are for a Cherry ? Mine came with a gaff rig, which I haven't seen on any others. I have an old mast that I'll probably have to cut down, together with a Tasar main. The jib has a very short foot and as a result there's a lot of sheet to the cleat, which makes it difficult to go sail to wind without it luffing. Will a Tasar jib fit or is there something better? Thanks
hi steve how about posting a few pictures of the gaff rigged cherry?
as far as the standard rig goes the main had a foot of 2439mm and luff of 4926mm the jib foot was 2032mm luff 4038mm. mast as per plans is alloy 6.5m long 60.3mm round tapered for 3.2m at top BUT origional plans had the mast stepped on the c/b extension. if your step is on deck shorten accordingly,(an option on the plans) but boom is 406mm above cabin top. mast is stepped 1778mm from bow to front of mast. as far as i can tell the tasar main was chosen as a replacement because it will fit on an existing cherry mast if the gooseneck is lowered.(its also a little bigger and most owners moved the step aft as far as it would go. as for the jib - i don't know. I'm currently building a cherry to use a fireball rig i already have. the fireball also has a small jib foot so im going to make it self tacking. but if yours is luffing just adding a deadeye on a track should fix this hope this is helpfull
chears - Matt
Steve,
I just plucked these from the AUS class rules, which were slightly different to the original NZL design.
5.3 The mast length shall not exceed 5.50m.from the heel point to the upper limit mark.
5.4 The jib hoist height shall not exceed 4.93m.from the heel point.
5.5 The spinnaker hoist height shall not exceed 5.32m from the heel point.
8.2 The relevant edge of the three required limit marks shall be as follows:
No 1. The Mainsail Upper Limit Mark- the lower edge of the mark shall be maximum 5.50m above the mast foot.
No 2. The Mainsail Lower Limit Mark- the upper edge of the mark shall be 5.26m below the lower edge of the mainsail upper limit mark.
No 3. The Boom Outer Limit Mark- the inner edge which shall be 2.35m from the aft side of the mast excluding track.
As for the luffing jib, as Matt says above, just add a lead at the right place, most are now mounted on the cabin top to reduce the angle. On my original rig cherry, the tracks are on the side decks, but unless it's blowing hard we cant hold on to the Hartleys upwind. The standard jib doesn't come much past the mast, I'm pretty sure it ends well forward of the shrouds.
All the best, Aaron.
Matt and Aaron, many thanks for the information.
Regarding the photos, I sent a couple to jaxsen_lee back in March but they weren't posted for some reason. Anyway, I've just resent them so hopefully they'll appear soon. Cheers, Steve
On my Cherry the jib track is 330mm off the centreline, using a barber hauler for increasing the angle above 15 knots. The 650mm long track ends at the aft end of the cabin. The thrre jibs re of different footlengths depending on the forecast wind strength. The clew is some 75mm above the track. To clear the cabin forward the tack is on a furler. Without this the clew ends up to high for the downwrd sheeting angle. the Tasar jibs are small but ideal for above 25knots.The Tasar main is a good size but the luff round may need reducing as the Cherry mast is stiffer. You can make a new sail larger with a wider roach. The area is unlimited subject to it fitting within the black bands.
Here is a link to some photos of my gaff rigged Cherry. https://picasaweb.google.com/101658349381644186436/Cherry16?authuser=0&feat=directlink
There are some of her from before I made modifications others from after I moved the mast step aft and the boom up. I have yet to see how she sails with the changes. I also haven't yet sorted out the long jib sheets as per recommendations. For information, I believe this is the Cherry shown at the top of the page about 8 years on.
I've just spotted this one on trademe...
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/trailersailers/auction-534522180.htm
Good price for a cherry on trailer in Auckland, minimal work required to get it afloat.
Multi club trailer race Easter 2013
Gday. Several clubs on Port Phillip are getting together next Easter for some social/racing. St Leonards (my club) will be one of the anchor points. I believe there will be a race to another club across the bay. Perhaps some cheery folk would like to hook up and play. It would be good to see a few in action and even possibly have a class match race (I will follow you.
cheers Bill
sail 315
Hi folks,
I've just aquired a Cherry called "Y-Knott", from up Dargaville way, North Is., NZ. Been a nice boat in its day, and obviously been raced. I'm about to restore it for cruising. Will try to upload a photo or two if I can figure out how.
Hi and welcome Geoff!!
I got the PM you sent from crew.org.nz, however it's come through as a no-reply. So I cant reply.
Moving on...
My Cherry is looking a little worst for wear at the moment, having been a bit neglected this season with young family and laser racing taking up copious amounts of time.
I've read numerous accounts on here about how to make a cherry perform upwind, but the two things to my mind that make the biggest difference are getting the weight forward, and forgetting everything you know about sailing a boat flat. I usually sail around on a 30 degree lean, and have similar height and speed to the Hartleys around here in anything over 15 knots. Similar enough that I can sometimes beat the tail enders upwind.
As has been written here a lot, the design had the centreboard a little too far aft, so lots of mast rake is required for balance.
One thing I've noticed for cruising inland, they're not great once you lift the board up for shallow water, with no skeg they blow sideways a lot.
enjoy the new toy, they're great!!
I agree with Aaron with keeping the bow about one and half inch in. We sail with the crew and skipper hard up against the cabin going to windward. Above ten knots both on the windward side, below spread out across the boat. However I disagree about the angle of heel. We keep her at 10-12 degrees. More than that she slides sidewards with a tendency to have massive weather helm. Above eight knots breaze the boat is at hull maximum displacement speed of about 3.6 knots so the secret is to minimize sideways slip by minimizing heel and point high. I set the jib up at 9-10 degrees off the centreline and keep the main tight so the windward tufts are lifting up 50% of the time.
We frequently sail and race with a Hartley 16 and a Quiksilver 16.
Our boatspeed against them almost directly relates to our fore and aft trim, we actually did some two boat testing, and found that in light winds, our speed compared to the Hartley improved massively, as I went from the cockpit, gradually moving forward until I was alongside the mast.
Regarding the heel angle, I've been a Laser racer for over 20 years, and usually sail those with a windward heel, but after a few months of sailing the Cherry, we found that a large heel angle actually helped us upwind. I can only assume it's the result of digging the lee chine deeper into the water, which may be acting as some form of long keel.
We are using the old style kiwi rig, with the smaller main, while Paul is using the Aus rig, so maybe that's a part of it.
1 1/2 months spare time effort, and "Y-Knott" is re-finished inside and out, re-rigged and trailer re-furbished. Entire hull structure was completely sound, and she's looking as good as new. Can't find any original sail number even though she was rigged for racing. Name of the boat will change shortly to something more modern. I've had some contact with 'jaxsonlee', and he is no longer active on this site, having moved on to a larger yacht.
Been for a coupla sails. With quite a lot of mast rake, I had neutral helm. Gonna re-cut main a bit flatter, and raise mast about 250mm as I change it from keel stepped to tabernacle. Also going to trim jib down to a more modern blade jib configuration. Might play round with some extra ballasting aswell, to suit some single-handed sailing I'm going to b doing. Certainly an easy yacht to tow, launch, retrive and do a few over-nighters and day-sailing on.
Hi all
I am in the process of re rigging my Cherry16 (Melissa 2), having read thru this blog it seems that a Tasar main is the go.
Any suggestions where to find one?
I plan to get back to some racing around Victoria this coming season.
Racing in Western Port we found windward performance very sad, but a flyer downwind. We also raced at Hazelwood Pondage where there was less wave action and we pointed somewhat better. However our sails were recycled dinghy sails and pretty ordinary.
Looking forward to getting back into sailing.
Trevor D
I recently altered the mast from keel-stepped, to cabin top tabernacle, (and raised the mast 150mm to allow room for the vang). Also placed nearly 60kg of lead around cabin floor area, and have contained it with a ply cabin sole overlay. re-named the yacht "Jester III". All ready to go.
Forgot to mention, I also shifted the mast back 150mm to induce a little weather-helm, and made some "stilts", to keep the yacht upright when drying out in tidal bays overnight.
60kg of internal ballast is working out about right, when singlehanding. I also have 4x 5 litre water containers, to add another 20kg when its breezier. Full sail is ok till about 15 knots of wind, then dropping the jib is the best option. After that I have a couple of reefing positions. Two-up, or other multiple crew senarios alters this quite a bit. Jester is proving to be an ideal gunkholing vessel.
I have just bought a Cherry 16 with an ex Tasar mainsail. Does anyone know what the class rules are for the sails as the data at the head of the blog seems wrong?
Hi there. The use of a Tasar sail is permitted within the class rules. If you look back in the blog to November 2010 you will see where Cherry Ripe posted the class rules. If you have any problems let me know. I have photos of my set up for racing with all controls doubled up. It uses about 20 Harken jam cleats but realy works It has a spinnaker chute and jib roller for better trimoff the breeze..
I think the Cherry is a cracking looking boat for a light TS that will fit in the garage..
If anyone knows of one for sale, let me know!
Not only is it a great little boat that fits into a garage but it also fits into a 20' shipping container. Mine while based in Canberra has traveled to the Philippines and Papua New Guinea classified as a household item. Thank you taxpayers for helping me enjoy my sport..
Gday. The St Leonards YC&MS are holding a trailer sailor weekend races Saturday to Monday the Easter weekend. Is anyone going with a cherry"
Bill
Alex. If you are thinking of buying a Cherry 16 decide how you are going to use her. The original plans and most of the photos on this blog are for a simple under powered cruising boat for family enjoyment. The NZ version with heavier winds.
In the 1990s there was a development in Victoria to use a racing rig which had a bigger fully main battened main.The hounds where made higher increasing the size of the jib and spinnaker. These dimensions where those on the Yachting Victoria CBH list. My 'Stoned' is an example.
The next development was to improve the hull by increasing the waterline length with a finer bow. It was the equivalent of the Mk 3 version of the Hartley 16.Being stitch and glue this improvement was easy.'Hotshot' is an example.
A few boats also went mast head rig with again an increase of sail area. 'Shivers' is an example of this.
aul, I'm looking for a cruiser really, mostly a day-sailer. Probably use it on the lakes, south coast, Jervis bay and so forth. So I think the de-powered version will be fine to begin with.
I have fairly constrained garage - 5.5 (l) x 2.5 (w) x 2.0 (h) - so I think the cherry is about as big as it will fit. Possibly a TS16, but I like the weight advantage of the cherry - will make it easier to single hand.
There's one on trailersailerplace at the moment, but the trailer is too long for my garage, sadly.
Alex St John. The problem in Canberra is many garages in the old suburbs were built when the average car was much smaller. I chose the Cherry as it will fit into a 20 foot shipping container and thus becomes household furniture when I go abroad. There are simple solution to your length problem. The trailer is often extended from the bows so the downwards pressure on the tow bar is limited for car stability. If you go in stern first, cut a hole in the garage door. Going in bow first is more complex. Have the hull supports adjustable so once the trailer is detached the boat can be pushed forward over the tow ball.Being light this is relatively easy if the centre board is wound up Then push the trailer into the garage. You need a good jockey wheel.
I think the answer for me is going to be the Fulton folding drawbar hinge, as pointed out by the guys on tsp...
http://www.fultonperformance.com/content/products.aspx?lvl=2&parentid=7000&catid=7060&part=0
Is anyone seriously racing a Cherry 16? What is the best way to set one up for top performance?
It all depends on what type of Cherry 16 you have. The information at the top of the page is about the NZ cruising version. In Australia, particularly, in Victoria, the most common version is the racing version with a bigger rig. The specifications for the Australian version were given in the Yachting Victoria CBH Detail List. The jib and spinnaker are much bigger with the hounds much higher, while the main has a larger fully battened roach. If you have the Australian version, then it is tuned as if she is a 145, if the NZ version just enjoy sailing or bring it up to standard. For example use a Tasar mainsail. Good Luck
I've recently started a facebook page for Cherrys. Just type in Cherry 16, and you're all welcome to comment and share ideas and photos.
Can't seem to see your C16 facebook page, Geoff - can you post a link to it?
https://www.facebook.com/Cherry16TrailerYacht/photos/a.644437528904487.1073741827.644398522241721/908757019139202/?type=1
Just typing in Cherry 16 trailer yacht should get you there. I'd like to build the page up in facebook format, as this is the more user-friendly application in this day and age. All contributions welcome.
Hi Guys,
We purchased a Cherry and it is in good, what looks like, original condition. We are having a problem with it pulling very hard to windward on both tacks! We have tried raking the mast forward and using a bigger jib but to no avail. Any suggestions or commonly known tuning issues?
Regards
Matt
Hi Matthew, I am not an expert in these matters but I think the problem you are seeing is lee helm. If you look at previous posts in the blog several contributors address this problem. On my own Cherry, I have moved the mast step back to the edge of the hatch, leaving just enough room to allow me to get the hatch on. I think this was worthwhile. The chain plates need to go back as well so that the side stays work correctly. Rather than raking the mast forward, shouldn't you be raking it backwards?
Best regards,
Steve
Thanks for your input Steve, we're actually experiencing weather helm, where it wants to steer to windward and we're having to constantly pull on the tiller. I think it may be best to try and get some old plans so we can check everything lines up to the original measurements?...
Steve, I just looked over the posts again and wow! Originally when I came across this blog I ran a search for (weather helm) hence I missed all the lee helm posts. This only makes me more suspicious the original builder may have tried to counter the known lee helm issue but maybe took it too far the other way!? Maybe they built the centreboard case further forward?
Hi and welcome, Matt.
My first thought is does your boat have a standard rig? People have used Hartley rigs, which have a much longer boom, which could cause weather helm.
On my boat we actually pull the centreboard forward of vertical, and have over a foot of mast rake, which results in almost neutral helm.
Lee helm is a common problem in Cherry's, most people would love to have your problem instead.
Good luck, let us know whatyou work out!
what part of what country are you located in Matt?
Hi Aaron,
Thanks mate. Not sure on the rig, that's why I'd like to get some plans to measure everything up. We're on Hindmarsh Island South Australia
Hi Matthew, I made some measurements on my Cherry alongside the centre board case inside the boat to the stern. To the front of the centre board case is 2370. To the pivot 2150. Mast centre is 400 in front of centre board case (moved aft, not original position). I hope this is of use. I am in Adelaide and you're welcome to call in some time. Steve
I have just purchased a Cherry 16 through an auction on Canberra.
Number 378 it is called Cherry Cocktail on the sail bags. Any info would be helpful.
Have repainted her and took it out on Friday for a short sail.
I'm new to sailing so was fairly causious. Gold Coast tom@bulletcars.com
Hi all, I just came across this forum so thought i’d say g’day. Acquired an AU Cherry 16 #372 in January this year, have been floating around pittwater and middle harbour since. Any other Cherry sailers in the Sydney region?
Hi guys is anyone able to share a plan or any info about the mechanism that raises / lowers the keel? The metal line on my cherry has perished and I’m not sure the beat way to approach fixing this - can this be done while on the trailer and if not are they strong enough to rest on their side / top deck to repair. Keen to fix but don’t want to break further! Any help very grateful received! Thanks! Chris.
Hi Chris. The line attaches to the trailing edge of the plate about midway. If you support the stern with a bench or similar and support the bow you can take out the trailer. You will need about three feet clearance below. Dropping the keel is easy by gravity. Take care to not go under yourself and have anything drop on you. You can then pass a new line up through the keelbox to the pulley and pull the keel back up. Mine has a lug on the head of the keel to help lock it forward. However that requires dropping out the whole plate. Bill
Just roll the boat over on soft grass. I've lost count of the number of times we rolled ours over.
Make sure you have a lock down line or similar attached too, and use it.
Fantastic boats, only sold ours a few weeks ago as the family is just too big now.
Just bought one of these and was also wondering about checking replacing the keel ropes and cables, the comments above have answered my question. Just learning to handle mine, got 7 knots out of it last weekend (according to me GPS) it seemed to bear up (point into the wind) when the wind got stronger and was quite hard to keep on the same heading. Still a bit nervous about how far i can lean it over as i am unsure if i will be able to right it by myself.
With reference to the last comment, glad to hear you're having fun with your new Cherry. I am surprised about the weather helm. The Cherry has a bad reputation for lee helm. On mine the mast has been moved back as close to the hatch as possible and is now quite well balanced. Perhaps you could rake the mast forwards a bit? Regarding righting it, I think the main thing is to avoid having to in the first place. See the comments by a previous poster about a lock down mechanism. I imagine things could end very badly if you capsized and the centre plate crashed back into the case in a hurry. If you include a piece of elastic in this, it's not so bad if you run into shallow water.I've also read that it's a good idea not to cleat the main sheet.
Thanks for the response, mine has been built with the mast as far back as possible, hard up against the hatch, I suspect it was just overpowered and I should have had a reef, but that is hard to do single handed. Your advise about avoiding needing to right it is well heeded! I never cleat the main and always lock the centerboard down.
Hi all. I'm James and I bought a Cherry 16 about 2 years ago, number 293. She was named "WrinkesFromSmiling" by the original owner although now she's just called Wrinkles. It appears to be the Australian spec with the mast moved back and jib tracks on the cabin. I sail with my family or friends on Lake burley griffin in Canberra , it's really good for what I'm after. Although the wife isn't too keen on going out in anything above 10Kts. Cheers James.
Only discovered the Pelin Cherry just hours ago. One for sale locally.
Little said about reefing. What to do when wind becomes too strong and you have to sail the boat home.
Any thoughts
Depending on where you sail, and whether solo or with passenger/crew.
If solo, I just used to drop the jib, and sail around with the mainsail only. With my wife onboard, we never even got close to needing a reef. Our slab reef would have taken maybe 800mm off the luff. It was always ready to go, but never used.
In bigger waves maybe we would have reefed, but in flat water we never did.
The biggest safety issue as noted in earlier posts is the swing keel. We had sailed very happily for a prolonged blat on Port Phillip with a reef at the first ring. The weather was such that we were pushed low from the jetty by wind and tide several times in shallow shelving water. We were knocked over whilst pulling up the keel to cope with the shallows. We should have dropped all sails and walked in.
Robert from Laurieton NSW asking where and how to anchor/ attach front stay to bow of Cherry, with sail No 340, I have repaired/painted this one over the last 2yrs as a part time hobby..( pleased some part of my brainbox coaxed photos to be taken before commencement of dismantling so all going back together ok but for some reason no photo of the that front stay apart from a reef furling apparatus. Happy days everyone.
We are refitting the one with rainbow colours now. Maiden voyage tomorrow
Hi. I am considering two Cherry16 in Central Queensland coast. One needs serious TLC and is asking $950.00 on a trailer - it seems to have scavenged sails - no motor. The other seems in very good condition on a trailer - second hand sails - good motor - $3500.00 and willing to reduce. What does the blogs brain trust think? David Grimshaw, Rockhampton City, Queensland.
Any Cherry sfor Sale????? I am in Adealide but can travel to say NSW, Vic, or QLD. Good nick and with trailer - anyone know of any let me know? Geoff
I have capsized a Cherry and three litre milk bottles in the boat under the gunwales on each side using rope through the handles plus extra buoyancy in the stern. Despite the capsize, it was a great boat daughter and I got it up by standing on the centreboard but it was unsteady and the back and Outboard was underwater. I subsequently put over 20
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